Klean's recoil idea will ruin Tarkov / A story about zebras and crocodiles


Hello and welcome to another episode of me trying to put out a casual fire that is threatening to burn down the realism in EFT.


How recoil works right now in EFT:






Please pay close attention to the initial recoil impulse creating a strong kick for the first few shots, and then it settles down into a rythm the shooter can control.



This is realistic and backed by many gifs I have created from youtube videos. Take a look:

In this video, you can see Iraqveteran8888 "hipfiring an AR15 type weapon on full auto. While he is shooting, don't look at the weapon but instead look at what is happening to his upper body.
Do you see how when the shooting starts, his body is rocked back, then remains stationary more or less with a slight creep backwards until it quickly rocks back forth when the shooting stops.





 Now for the next example. This gentleman appears to be an experienced weapon user too (he is standing in front of a hesco wall). The same as in the first gif, upper body is rocked back, then stabilizes until the shooting stops and then rocks back.





This gif demonstrates how an AK-74 in full auto settles into a rythm if used by an experienced shooter. The recoil pattern is stable and does not expand or gradually become uncontrollable.







Here you can see a stronger shooter fire an AR-15 type weapon. Even with his physique, full auto fire will create that initial spike in recoil.











I hope you are not bored yet, please continue reading, there is a point to all of this. The point is that, when the shooting starts, the whole body attempts to compensate for the recoil, and since the recoil happens at the top end of the standing shooter's body, and goes into his shoulder, this creates leverage that the lower body can not completely compensate for. This is why shooters lean forward into the gun, so that the muscles of the front of the torso (abs and chest mostly) can push against it.


This leaning forward is instinct and becomes more precise with more experience. But it is virtually impossible to completely avoid it. So when the shooting stops, the muscles of the upper body that stabilize the torso, mainly the back and front muscles of the torso, suddenly are met with a lack of force pushing the body back, so the back muscles overcompensate. This causes the body to rock forward again. This can be anticipated and reduced, but not avoided. However the recoil after the spike settles and remains stable, so Nikita's compromise to have it become less controllable after the spike has no basis in reality and is just appeasing a streamer. You can find many more videos on youtube that show people firing magazine after magazine without their arms tiring and without the recoil becoming less controllable after the initial spike.

This also happens in situations without guns. In this example the electrically powered drill will cause a sudden increase of torque that the muscles have to react to.








This is what Klean wants

 Talking Tarkov #6 von Klean auf www.twitch.tv ansehen 


At 1:08:24 he says that he feels recoil should be the opposite of what it is now. He wants a gradual ramp that goes from controllable burst to uncontrollable full auto.



But that is the worst idea I have seen from a streamer yet. As you saw in the first chapter of this article, that initial recoil bump is required for realistic shooting.
Nikita responds by stating that EFT will keep the initial recoil kick but then he starts to give in to klean suggestion to decrease controllability after it is on full auto for some time. That is bad and has no basis in reality. Klean uses an arbitrary idea of "encouraging" players to shoot a certain way to interfere with the physical representation of weapon recoil. That is a sin in EFT. The game is supposed to be a weapon simulator, with "maximum possible realism". The internal properties of a weapon should never ever be eroded to encourage people to not shoot full auto. The only reasonably allowed way should be to make ammo so expensive that full auto is discouraged or that full auto increases the chance of stoppage.



And the worst part? BSG already knows better than to give in to streamer pressure. They stated in dev videos that they have their animators shoot weapons at the shooting range so they get a feel for it. So why the hell are they allowing themselves to be directed by streamers? Streamers naturally have a conflict of interest because they play because it pays the rent. So any suggestions they make is to increase their viewer amount. So there is that. If Tarkov would lose its viewer audience, then all streamers would pack up and play another game. This means streamers don't care about Tarkov, they care about people watching them playing Tarkov. But the damage done by bad suggestions remains. And this suggestion is very bad. Because it attacks the core of how weapons feel.

It might sound cynical of me to state that streamers only play it for the money, but that is not an issue. A streamer's job literally is to secure a large enough audience to pay the rent. That's cool. But that also means that if the game fails to attract viewers, every single streamer will drop it faster than a mosin player will drop his mosin in a bush for insurance when he finds an m4. So if the game not being watched by twitch audiences, that is not my concern as a player. A streamer that is popular can easily find new games to play, but us hardcore players, we got nowhere to go when tarkov gets casualized. Casual players can select from many casual games to play, like fortnite, squad, arma3, minecraft. But there is nothing like tarkov for the hardcore crowd.

And if you don't believe me about the "streamers do it for the money" argument, then look at the viewer numbers and streamer numbers for Post scriptum and Scum.





Post scriptum was hyped as a great game and favorite and epic, and then it nosedived and now not a single streamer is online playing it. Scum was a similar hype and now it is disappearing. Now for extra fun, go to youtube and look for all the pre-release videos streamers made praising the game with their press copy they got for free.

I just wanted to get this point talked through. Streamers have a natural conflict of interest, which is not always an issue. But it is irritating that some parts of the game have eroded towards casual because streamers "felt" something and BSG happily followed it.

What happens in games that do what Klean wants

Ghost Recon Wildlands. A smoothly expanding spread and smoothly creeping muzzle rise. I want none of this in EFT.









This is what happens when you shoot an assault rifle in squad on full auto. Keep in mind, this is without any mouse interference. And the videos of weapons in EFT on full auto are without mouse control too. In squad, the gun will point to the sky. This happens when naive balance impulses like Klean has had in the stream are used to design realistic games. Squad ruined its realism because they designed by pushing and encouraging players into stuff instead of replicating realism and then carefully balancing around edges. Squad devs were so obsessed with punishing players for shooting full auto that weapons get sucked towards the sky, just to make absolutely sure "shooting is "skillbased" and "not like cod". EFT developers avoided this mistake and just sent their animators on a shooting range and EFTs weapons feel realistic like in no other game.

Besides it is not realistic for a weapon to kick to the sky. They don't have enough force to do it.

Weapons must feel as real as possible. And if full auto is easy in real life, which it is, then it has to be easy in EFT. And if weapons have that initial recoil spike, which is realistic, then EFT has to have that too.


What would have happened if streamers helped develop EFT 5 years ago

They would have
  • Told nikita that no one needs 11 ammo types for 5.45. They would have insisted on "AP" and "HP".
  • Suggested to not make players lose gear on death because that would be too frustrating.
  • Suggested to not add magazine checks because that "would add no gameplay".
  • Suggested to add creeping expanding recoil patterns to "prevent full auto" which is exactly what klean is doing now.
  • Eroded all hardcore features we love in EFT into a casual version of it because the average gamer does not think out of the box of existing levels of realism. BSG does. They pushed the boundary to levels only flight simulator developers do.




What happens if you argue against too much streamer influence



Closing words and zebras and crocodiles

Imagine you have a game where one player is a crocodile in a pond. And the other players are zebras who have to drink water, because it is a survival game. Now as predicted the zebras always get eaten by the crocodile because it camps the pond and the zebras got nowhere else to go.

A suggestion similar to what Klean suggests would be to make the crocodile zebra-meat intolerant and give the zebras horns  and sabretooth fangs. So when the crocodile tries to eat a a zebra it either gets killed by it or dies from food poisoning. Then zebras keep winning the game and the viewership on twitch disappears because they were promised a realistic african eco system simulator. The streamers then drop the game and run off playing fortnite. Then the streamer thinks his idea was still great because he discouraged the crocodile from directly attacking the zebra for which it was equipped to do by evolution.

The realistic way to fix it would have been to replace the pond with a large lake so the zebras could approach the lake from different directions and outmaneuver the crocodile to safely drink water.

Spraying full auto is realistic and accurate as it is in EFT right now. The problem is that most encounters are in cramped areas so players will naturally go full auto until the target is dead. When the distance increases, so does the willingness to shoot semi auto. That is why we can not break recoil realism to fix another issue in the game. Because then the whole game is eventually warped because the developers have to ruin realism in one part to fix it in another.

Artificially punishing players for prolongued full auto fire becoming inaccurate is not a solution. It does not even need a solution. If you sneak into dorms you signed a paper before entering that says "I accept all full auto-ness that will await me in this temple of doom." You go into dorms, you won't have bohemian wine drinking artists dueling with careful aimed shots, you will encounter full auto hell, that's it.

Realism players, rise up! (again)

Don't leave the game to the casuals. Be more vocal. Tell the devs you want the hardcore game that is was when they started developing the game 5 years ago. It was developed without any streamer or casual input and they got most things perfect. And don't be afraid of downvotes. Hardcore fps games run on the tears of casuals.

The BSG animators know better than streamers on how to make the recoil realistic, streamers whould have no say in this.



Kommentare

  1. Even if actually recoil seems realistic, it's way underpowered and too easy to control. Nikita said that they're going to improve the actaul system with an inital kick, then a stable situaion and then recoil will go crazy.

    I completely agree with you on the casual side of EFT and i believe they can do a game way more hardcore and still enjoyable. Realism should be the ending word

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    Antworten
    1. That extra punishing recoil at the end is just nikita being talked into a dumb idea. There is no basis in reality for full auto to become uncontrollable after 10-20 shots. It's that when nikita gets dragged in front of a camera klean can talk him into anything.
      I mean the blog post shows it you can fire endlessly large magazines on full auto and keep it stable.

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  2. Firing full auto in real life is not easy in the slightest. Ask literally any - and I mean any - combat veteran if full auto firing rifles is accurate at 200m (I've tested this myself. A decently modded AK-74m can do this) and they will tell you "no."

    It's not because the shooter finds it difficult to stabilise the gun, however. I'll give you that. It's because the internal parts of a rifle move around when firing full auto. The main thing effecting accuracy is that the barrel wobbles in its placement. A 1 degree difference creates a 6 foot difference at 100 yards (citation needed) and the barrel wobbles far more than that. Watch this video to show you how much a gun wobbles around firing full auto: https://youtu.be/gD7pd03L43k . Firing full auto would be useless past 20m. Klean is right, full auto firing needs to be changed so it isn't usable in medium to lnog range engagements. He is just wrong about how it should be changed.

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  3. I really hope Nikita and his squad will not implement this. As it's been stated before, the initial kick is really the only issue you have in real life. It will be somewhat different when firing a M249 or other heavy LMGs.

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